Document Name: IRC Chat #SacredNemeton Log
Participants: Name Withheld, Name Withheld, Name Withheld, Name Withheld, Name Withheld, Name Withheld,
Subject/Topic: Crane Book of Wisdom
Session Start: Tue Jul 06 21:03:27 1999
<Taliesin_2> Bandia dhuit!
<Name Withheld> hullo =)
<Name Withheld> Hallo!
<Name Withheld> The server has been booting me all night, so don’t be offended if I leave suddenly. >8)
<Taliesin_2> BTW, would you like a copy of the chat log? I log all of the chats…
<Taliesin_2> Hi Ice!
<Name Withheld> Hello Ice
<Name Withheld> Hope I’m not too late
<Name Withheld> so we might have him to torture yet…
<Name Withheld> Hiya macMor
<Name Withheld> Deithe duit, all
<Name Withheld> Beannachti macMor
<Name Withheld> So is the chat over, I know I’m late
<Taliesin_2> Bandia dhuit macMor
<Taliesin_2> There is no published book Called the Crane Book of Wisdom.
<Name Withheld> Makes me feel better =)
<Taliesin_2> Its a creation of mine…
<Name Withheld> ok…
<Name Withheld> A concept, or something that you’re writing?
<Name Withheld> cool Tal_2 .. is it going well?
<Taliesin_2> It contains various items that I have found appealing to me…
<Taliesin_2> I’ve been working on it since
<Taliesin_2> Its has the Triads by CnG that was linked to at the IMBAS site…
<Taliesin_2> It has some stuff on herbs, like how to make poultices & tinctures….
<Name Withheld> Sounds like a personal grimoire.
<Taliesin_2> Isaac’s Hymn to the Morrighan
<Taliesin_2> You might say that I guess…
<Taliesin_2> Celtic/Irish proverbs
<Name Withheld> Trying again!
<Taliesin_2> And quotes by Ayn Rand…
<Taliesin_2> But I have some questions for you all…
<macMor> Ayn Rand!?! Well, to each their own…
<IceWa1ker> shoot Tal_2
<Taliesin_2> But before I do start asking I have to say this one bit:
<Taliesin_2> I created this book because I felt most of our wisdom that we are regaining comes from both Nature AND the Gods(general usage).
<Taliesin_2> And since the items of the Crane Bag are mystical items, I thought the Crane Book of Wisdom would be a good title…
<Taliesin_2> Now, how many here has read the references to the Crane Bag in the Matthews’ Encyclopaedia of Celtic Wisdom?
<Name Withheld> sure
<Taliesin_2> I ask this just so I know you all know what I’m talking about… 🙂
<Name Withheld> No prob, WW, are you familiar with the symbol of the Crane Bag generally?
<WickedWit> I’ve heard of it, yeah
<Name Withheld> The repository of a set of mystical Treasures
<Taliesin_2> references to it can be found on pg. 133 & 142-143 in the book btw. 🙂
<WickedWit> =) I’d look it up now, but I’m not at home =( Oh well… laters good too…
<Taliesin_2> A treasure bag of four Treasures
<Name Withheld> More than 4, in the original tale, no?
<Taliesin_2> Yes. Sorry.
<Taliesin_2> About 6 – 8 total…
<Name Withheld> It isn’t connected with the Treasures of the TDD, really
<Name Withheld> it belonged to Mac Lir who was one of the TdD
<Name Withheld> (I’m just guessing… never read it…)
<Taliesin_2> Ah. OK.
<Name Withheld> yep
<Taliesin_2> But my main questions are concerning your personal preferences for such a book.
<Name Withheld> how do you mean preferences Tal_2?
<Taliesin_2> Your personal perceptions of what should go in the book…
<Name Withheld> So, is this for publication, or for you?
<Taliesin_2> Yourself. And possibly a Grove.
<Name Withheld> wow .. one would be tempted to say “put everything in” but that’s not realistic 🙂
<Name Withheld> Right. focusing on a specific Celtic culture?
<Name Withheld> there seem to be very few publications (real ones that is) for the individuals who want a good basis to explore further from
<Name Withheld> did that make any sense
<Taliesin_2> Like for instance, I started mine off with the Triads from CnG
<Taliesin_2> Not really.
<Name Withheld> Yeah, I agree Ice
<Name Withheld> Sure – there are several good sources for triads.
<Taliesin_2> It can be focused towards Irish, Scottish, or Cornish/Manx…
<Name Withheld> I’d start by choosing a culture – it’s not possible to do a general ‘Celtic’ thing in any orderly way, I think
<Name Withheld> Ah, so Gaelic, rather than Brythonic – that’s something
<Name Withheld> yes macMor but the triads are a very long document .. those looking may not have the interest in the whole set
<Taliesin_2> I actually wrote Ford & Bailie t ask if they have a unsold copy of Kuno Myer’s Irish Triads in their warehouse…
<Name Withheld> I wish I had gotten The Scholar’s Primer when copies were available
<Taliesin_2> I also asked if they do Special Printings
<Name Withheld> Put the Ogam knowledge in the book. Keep it to the known, save the speculative for later
<Name Withheld> sometimes I think that it might have been nice when I was 15 to have had access to a “This is a good starting point if your interested” publication that referenced other info
<Name Withheld> The material in Matthews isn’t bad, and try to find ‘Ogam, the Poet’s Secret’
<Taliesin_2> On the Ogham.
<Taliesin_2> Is it in the book?
<Name Withheld> I know macMor .. each book seems to be specific, sometimes lengthy, and sometimes *VERY* dry .. not for those just starting
<Name Withheld> Yes, In the ‘Encyclopedia’. They give the basic Book of Ballymote stuff.
<Taliesin_2> Question #1
<Taliesin_2> What would you put into your Crane Book?
<Name Withheld> A list of the Deities
<Name Withheld> the major deities
<Name Withheld> Notable Dead
<Name Withheld> the fire festivals
<Taliesin_2> Or what would you put into it to ” Make It Yours”???
<Name Withheld> a “ritual promer” as it were
<Name Withheld> Whatever you believe about the Sidhe 🙂
<Name Withheld> primer even 🙂
<Name Withheld> the Shide are good
<Taliesin_2> Notable Dead?
<Name Withheld> How yours, Tal?
<macMor> Yeah Tal – heroes, famous ancestors, etc
<Taliesin_2> Triads first
<Name Withheld> dispel a couple of untruths .. re human sacrifice, Stonehenge, etc….
<Name Withheld> Sure, if you like
<Name Withheld> One thing about the ‘Crane’ thing…
<Name Withheld> (not that there was no human sacriface .. just that it wasn’t a weekly event :-))
<Taliesin_2> Notes by the scribe(me).
<Taliesin_2> Quotes by Hanes Taliesin
<Taliesin_2> GA macMor
<Name Withheld> It seems to me that the Crane symbolism is about sorcery, magic and the Other – not particularly about the orderly progression of common life.
<Name Withheld> I’d think of the Crane thing as more about magic than religion. Just a comment…
<Taliesin_2> Yes, true. But even the magickal can affect the mundane. 🙂
<Name Withheld> Sure..
<Name Withheld> hummm … I looked at the title as more symbolic … ie.. a place to find necessary items 🙂
<Name Withheld> or important items
<Name Withheld> That’s *from* the Hanes Taliesin. Hanes means ‘song of’.
<Taliesin_2> But don’t religion & magic work in tandem with each other at times?
<Name Withheld> The Song of Taliesin would be good to include, though it has some Christian stuff
<Name Withheld> The comparable Song of Amairgin would be good for the same section
<Name Withheld> Sure Tal – I didn’t mean to make a great deal of it.
<Name Withheld> it might also be nice to somehow summarize the various cycles
<Taliesin_2> How so, Ice?
<Taliesin_2> All good suggestions.
<Name Withheld> Ice, like the Mythic, Ulster, Finn cycles?
* Name Withheld was speaking of the cycles in the books of invasions
<Name Withheld> hi
<Taliesin_2> Bandia dhuit…
<Name Withheld> as opposed to the seasonal cycles which would also be important 🙂
<Name Withheld> hi Nicaoidh
<Name Withheld> hi :c)
* Name Withheld din wanna interrupt
<Taliesin_2> I’d like to include the our Fire Festivals and data concerning them…
<Name Withheld> yup … fire festivals for sure .. their history, what they are for,
<Name Withheld> Sure, along with motifs and customs for rites
<Taliesin_2> But I really don’t know of any good books I can get general data about them from…
<Taliesin_2> or web sites….
<Name Withheld> a question though Tal_2 ?
<Name Withheld> Have you got ‘The Year In Ireland’?
<Taliesin_2> No. Never heard of it..
<Taliesin_2> Who’s it by?
<Name Withheld> what level of reader are you shooting for .. beginner pagan who thinks this stuff might be cool ’cause their parents don;t like it, or I am a pagan and need/want more info?
<Name Withheld> target audience I guess in other words?
<Name Withheld> The Year In Ireland, by Kevin Danaher. It’s a summary of folk practices for the whole calendar
<Taliesin_2> the latter…
<Name Withheld> Geez, IW – like Tal would go for option 1… 🙂
<Taliesin_2> Cool. I have Caitlin Matthews book for the year
<Name Withheld> 🙂
<Taliesin_2> Its about what to put in a book of Wisdom..
<Name Withheld> maybe I phrased that wrong … beginner level, intermediate level … etc 🙂
<Name Withheld> wasn’t sure what the topic meant :c)
<Taliesin_2> Oh. Sorry.
<Name Withheld> I’d think, IW, that we’re talking about a store-house of lore that might need a Druid’s instruction for a student to get the most out of it. More about putting the basic lore in one place than about interpretations and applications. Maybe?
<Name Withheld> Good rituals are hard to find or at least i find them hard to find
<Taliesin_2> Sounds good.
<Name Withheld> that’s the type of book I think we’re lacking right now macMor
* Name Withheld sighs – he tries to write good rituals
<Name Withheld> what about having explanations of things like who is who etc… I’ve found that hard to keep straight when I’m researching etc.. so it goes over my head and I don’t absorb much
<Name Withheld> If only we had a *single* example of a Celtic rite, it would be easier!
<Taliesin_2> Kind of like a book that a beginner could use, but a intermediate and beyond could keep adding to…
* Name Withheld never writes rituals down … think about them, do them … 🙂 no 2 ever the same
<Taliesin_2> Most definitely!
<Name Withheld> Dictionaries of mythic characters are easy to get, though, N
<Taliesin_2> Yes. I have the Oxford book of Mythology.
<Name Withheld> I think there’s big value in repeating rituals many times – it’s certainly what the ancients did.
<Name Withheld> good references to fire festivals (other than the very basic stuff) also seem to be in short supply
<Taliesin_2> paid $45 for it. Worth it though…
<Name Withheld> oh
<Name Withheld> where i was living there was nothing on Celtic or druidism etc..
<Name Withheld> Ellis’ Celtic mythic dictionaries are good, especially “Irish mythology’
<Taliesin_2> We might want to look at Scottish festivals/lore.
<Name Withheld> I’m in Toronto now though so should be able to find more
<Name Withheld> Now there’s Amazon.com
<Taliesin_2> Yes. I have booth
<Taliesin_2> both even
<Name Withheld> thankies macMor
<Name Withheld> Scottish is mainly a reflection of Irish, with a few local specialties
<Name Withheld> i don’t have a credit card
<Taliesin_2> I also have the Oxford book on Irish History. 🙂
<Name Withheld> I hear that!
<Taliesin_2> Same price…
<Taliesin_2> Both Hardback or Text
<Name Withheld> brb
<Name Withheld> if your in TO Nicaoidh check out the flea markets & rummage sales .. friends of mine have got me some good stuff in TO that way
<Taliesin_2> Which is why it might be worth looking into…
<Name Withheld> Blamire’s book Glamoury doesn’t suck as a Four High Days source.
<Taliesin_2> I have his Tree Mysteries book…
<Name Withheld> kewl thanx for the tip IceWa1ker
<Name Withheld> that sounds interesting
<Name Withheld> That’s his best, I think (the tree book)
<Taliesin_2> They might be listed in the paper as Estate sales, BTW, Nicaoidh
<Name Withheld> ok mansions ccome to mind
<Taliesin_2> yep. there you go…
<Name Withheld> Failte Korg
<Taliesin_2> Bandia dhuit Korg
<Name Withheld> Beannachti Korg
<Name Withheld> cosmology going to be in it?
<Name Withheld> Greetings All!
<Name Withheld> A summary of cosmology would be good.
* Name Withheld goes outside for some cool air and tries to think of a decent suggestion
<Taliesin_2> That could be a whole new book in itself macMor
<Name Withheld> 🙂
<Name Withheld> starting to sound like this project could turn into a series instead of a single Tal_2
<Name Withheld> Any Big Book is likely to get big! My old Wiccan BoS Ran to a hundred handwritten pages, and it was skeletal
<Name Withheld> Blessings all!
<Taliesin_2> What would you put into your wn Crane Book of Wisdom is the question at present Korg.
<Taliesin_2> Exactly Ice.
<Taliesin_2> I expect to continue into another book once this one is full. Book 1 of #?
<Name Withheld> If I had any idea what a Crane book was, I might have some ideas.
<Taliesin_2> It could be considered grimoire of sorts.
<Taliesin_2> A Druidic Book of Shadows if you will…
<Name Withheld> If it’s like that, then a better idea would be what NOT to put in it.
<Name Withheld> Ya know, that term would have a certain meaning in Bardism…
<Name Withheld> Bards were said to speak to one another in a ‘dark’ or ‘shadowed’ speech
<Taliesin_2> It could contain data on the Deities yu hold dear, etc,,
<Taliesin_2> yoiu, even
<Taliesin_2> poison ivy
<Taliesin_2> bugging’ me.
<Name Withheld> I’ve always kept everything in my head
<NName Withheld> ouch
<Taliesin_2> calamine lotion.
<Taliesin_2> wb, btw
<Name Withheld> thanks :c)
<Taliesin_2> Interesting. Care to elaborate?
<Name Withheld> I’m afraid I’m like Niccaoidh. I also keep everything in my head. The only books I have are reference books.
* Name Withheld too
<Taliesin_2> I might need to get a new book anyway.
* v needs to read things multiple times before it is really in the head
< Name Withheld > DAL net was having major split problems as well the other night
<Taliesin_2> DALnet _always_ has problems Ice.
< Name Withheld > wb folks
<Taliesin_2> Its why I split.
<Taliesin_2> To list my patron Deities and info pertaining to them. 🙂
<Taliesin_2> Re: I might need to get a new book anyway.
<Taliesin_2> split from DALnet anyway…
< Name Withheld> though they contain the info on gods, herbs, etc.. (reference books)
<Name Withheld> dalnet is icky
<Taliesin_2> Lets put it this way: It SUCKS! LOL
<Taliesin_2> Question # 2
<Taliesin_2> If you do create a Crane Book of Wisdon, should you let other people read it?
<Name Withheld> yes
<Taliesin_2> For instance fellow Grove mates
<Taliesin_2> or other Druids in general?
<Taliesin_2> May I ask why? (just curious…)
<Name Withheld> because information is knowledge
<Name Withheld> why would one deny knowledge to someone who was seriously looking for it?
<Taliesin_2> Because the person looking for it could have a history of mis-using info gleaned from others.
<Taliesin_2> Either given freely or stolen.
<Name Withheld> that’s why I used ‘seriously’ 🙂
<Name Withheld> Am I back?
<Taliesin_2> We should be wary of who we give it to, IMO.
<Name Withheld> I would use discretion of course but I wouldn’t deny an individual who was serious about trying to find something out
<Name Withheld> Madison.WI.US.PaganPaths.org seems to be a stable server
<Name Withheld> It’s what I was on before the split. It took three tries to get back into it.
<Name Withheld> akron.oh.us.paganpaths.org is what I meant to say.. oops
<Name Withheld> sorry don’t know what is with the routers tonight
<Name Withheld> akron is gone
<Taliesin_2> WB Nicaoidh & macMor
<Taliesin_2> Bandia dhuit GreyWolf
<Name Withheld> IW are you in Ohio?
<Name Withheld> shut down due to personal things in his life
<Name Withheld> nope … Baffin Island
<Name Withheld> actually
<Name Withheld> its dia dhuit
<Taliesin_2> For GreyWolf
<Taliesin_2> Re: Question # 2
<Taliesin_2> Re: If you do create a Crane Book of Wisdom, should you let other people read it?
<Name Withheld> Unless you want to make it a specifically private, talismanic thing, I’d say sure.
<Taliesin_2> I think this question is a question best answered on a personal level. But I agree with macMor…
<Taliesin_2> Question # 3
<Taliesin_2> If it were mandatory to have a Book of Wisom or a Crane Book, would you prefer it to be on the computer or in a actual (paper book/hard copy) diary/journal?
<Taliesin_2> IMO, I prefer a hard copy.
<Name Withheld> if I *HAD* to keep a book I’d do both 🙂
<Name Withheld> Here’s my rap on that: I think that the more conservative means of storing data is the more authenticly Druidic. Handwriting has a more direct, more somatic, connection to the self than typing can have.
<Name Withheld> electronic copy for ease of use/searching/etc … paper for when/if the electronic means failed
<Name Withheld> hummm.…
<Taliesin_2> less chance of losing that data in a computer crash…
<Name Withheld> I’m not against using electronic means as well, but the handwritten book has special value
<Name Withheld> I would think (my opinion only of course) that the ancients would not, if they had had the means, disposed of new technologies
<Taliesin_2> Besides, I have heard that writing by hand is a lost art in this Computer Age. 😦
<Taliesin_2> That is mainly the reason why I write in journal I bought. It is my Crane Book of Wisdom.
<Name Withheld> We are attempting to rebuild something that was lost, we use the tools at our disposal, as would, I believe, the ancients would have if they found themselves in the same position (again … my opinion only) 🙂
<Name Withheld> Well, IW, they resisted writing for a long time, for religious uses – we don’t have solid evidence that the Druids ever used it for religion at all
<Taliesin_2> To keep in practice…
<Name Withheld> True indeed macMor, but they were not the global population/culture that we are today
<Name Withheld> No – but the general tendency of religion to keep to the older, more archaic ways is world-wide
<Name Withheld> The modern Druid (if ever achieved) may well have a tribe that is completely global in nature, and therefore need modern tools
<Taliesin_2> Yes. But their colonies were spread over a vast area, Ice.
<Name Withheld> I don’t think an e-community can be a tribe
<Taliesin_2> Agreed, even…
<IceWa1ker> I’m not sure .. e-cultures are springing up all over, in various senses
<Name Withheld> Personally, I’ve never bought the idea that a Druid exists only in reference to a tribe
<Name Withheld> I think Druids serve the spirits, primarily, not any mortal people
<Taliesin_2> Agreed. But do they have the sense of a tribe online that they would irl?
<Taliesin_2> They may serve both macMor
<macMor> Sure, Tal
<Name Withheld> no .. but times are changing, change is constant, every culture/tribe/society changes & adapts to their new environments
<Name Withheld> Often they serve(d) communities. I just don’t think it’s definitive
<Name Withheld> Yep, but it’s religion’s job to preserve the old
<Taliesin_2> or a priority?
<Name Withheld> we are just changing faster than any other culture/tribe/society has ever changed in history before us
<Taliesin_2> just asking…
<Name Withheld> I’d have to disagree, it is the function of our belief structure to give us comfort, answer our questions & give meaning to our lives
<Name Withheld> IN my current work, it’s a priority. But I can see training independent, free-floating Druids as well
<Name Withheld> Hmm… I think questions and uncomfortable truth are just as important
<Name Withheld> to explain how we interact with, and our place in, the world/universe
<Taliesin_2> Yes, but as we progress at such a rate, aren’t we at risk of losing something? Something we may need later that we have discarded now?
<Name Withheld> that is a very real danger … we need to preserve as much as possible, with I believe, the tools at our disposal
<Name Withheld> Right – it’s the Druid’s job to retain the Old Ways, and keep them alive in future generations
<Taliesin_2> And if we have truly discarded it already, can we ever truly reclaim it when we need it most?
<Name Withheld> I don’t think we are talking about discarding anything, whether knowledge is recorded on paper or a hard drive is secondary to having the knowledge recorded some where so that future generations of people do not find themselves in the situation that we are in… that being, trying to reclaim knowledge
<Name Withheld> I’m talking about the effect on the nervous system of the student who is made to pay sufficient attention to the material to copy it by hand
<Name Withheld> The info can be stored in whatever way. Back when I taught Wiccan students, I gave them photocopies and made them write it into their own books
<Name Withheld> that is one way, a valid way, personally, I think & remember better with a keyboard in my hand, I went through college with with a laptop on my desk because I can organize thought better that way, which is why, at least for me, recording information in my computer works best
<Name Withheld> I’m changing servers – brb
<Taliesin_2> Question # 4
<Taliesin_2> If it _WEREN’T_ mandatory, would you desire to have one at all?
<Taliesin_2> or were not
<Name Withheld> in a sense I do have one 🙂
<Name Withheld> I have a searchable personal database of information that I have found useful on my system
<Name Withheld> organized in a way that probably makes little sense to anyone but me, but there all the same
<Taliesin_2> please give more info…
<Name Withheld> it has major headings such as Deity – Ritual – Festivals – Stories – etc
<Name Withheld> under each heading is the various information I have found regarding each as it is revelent to my personal practice
<Name Withheld> it contains notes, comments, questions where I need more info (lots of those – hehe)
<Taliesin_2> sounds good.
<Name Withheld> I find it useful
<Name Withheld> I also have multiple binders of information
<Name Withheld> 1 for stories/lore/poems
<Name Withheld> 1 for the mythological cycles
<Taliesin_2> wish i could create something like that in MS Access
<Name Withheld> 1 for deity
<Name Withheld> 1 for ritual
<Taliesin_2> But I have no idea how…
<Name Withheld> all have plenty of space for notations, questions, thoughts, etc ….
<Name Withheld> I tried using Access for this but couldn’t make it function properly for me
<Taliesin_2> so which program is it in?
<Name Withheld> I ended up using a program called TreePad which is small, easy to use, tree like interface pane
<Taliesin_2> IBM/Windows Mac or Linux
<Name Withheld> it’s a win9x program but the text format will transfer to linux easy enough as soon as I find a decent program … I have hopes for StarOffice
<Taliesin_2> looks like we lost him…
<Name Withheld> I am very big on trying to amass as much info as I possibly can … it’s the future generation thing 🙂
<Taliesin_2> Question # 5
<Taliesin_2> Would you break it down into sections or would you put things in it as you go?
<Name Withheld> I do 🙂
<Name Withheld> it’s the only way I could find stuff
<Taliesin_2> As do I. I also tend to keep a TOC on various pages throughout the book. 🙂
<Taliesin_2> I prefer to keep a Toc to help me along…
<Name Withheld> the main index in my little database does that for me as well
<Name Withheld> it is a bit of a chore to keep up sometimes though … but paper is (for me) so hard to organize and deal with
<Taliesin_2> for instance I can look it up and tell you the Triads were written on 111 pages of the book…give or take.
<Name Withheld> my indexing is no where’s near that accurate
<Taliesin_2> Question # 6
<Taliesin_2> If you chose a hard copy book, would it be a note book with loose leaf paper or a journal bought at a book store?
<Name Withheld> it would be a multi-ring binder that I could insert things into in the proper sections to keep it better organized… actually, that’s what my hard copy is in 🙂
<Name Withheld> printout binders
<Taliesin_2> how many?
<Name Withheld> I have 4 right now … but need to get another 1 or 2 …
<Taliesin_2> do you have a table of contents?
<Name Withheld> I have one beside me as a matter of fact … it’s about 3-inched thick
<Name Withheld> no TOC in the binders… each is devoted to a particular study area
<Name Withheld> i.e. I have one for ritual & ritual information and that is all that is in the book
<Taliesin_2> like I said I may need another book for Deities alone…
<Name Withheld> I make use of “sticky tabs” (don’t know their real names) to break the binders into sections as well as provide a place to write a note about that the item/section is
<Name Withheld> what the section is I mean…
<Name Withheld> no, they look like little plastic tabs (like you find on binder divider sets) with a writing space on the tab … one side is glued so I can stick it directly to a page in the binder
<Name Withheld> That way I can also stagger the tabs to give me a bit more visibility 🙂